Book One Events and Observations:
-In the Greek, the first word of the poem is “rage”
-We are given a glimpse into what the future holds:
-Bodies
left unburied, eaten by animals (a very bad thing in Ancient Greece)
-Zeus’
will will be done in the end
give up his prize (the woman Chryseis) to
appease Apollo, so he takes Achilles’ prize (the woman
Briseis)
-As a result of this, Achilles and his troops, the Myrmidons
(Greek for ant-people), withdraw from battle
-Thetis (Achilles’ sea-goddess mother) appeals to Zeus so
that the Greeks will lose without Achilles’ help, thus gaining him honor
-Noteworthy quotation: Achilles to Agamemnon:
“I have
seen more action
hand to
hand in those assaults than you have,
but when
the time for sharing comes, the greater
share is
always yours” (1.193-5), Fitzgerald trans.
Some questions to get you started:
-Why is honor so important to Achilles?
-How does a society decide who should have power?
-How does a society decide who should have power?
And...go. You can suggest answers to these questions, propose questions and/or observations of your own, and respond to what other people have to say. Also, feel free to share any good resources you know of, and any quotations you found interesting/noteworthy. Please just be respectful of each other and keep the language PG.
12 comments:
First off, I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought Agamemnon's "let the troops go home" thing was really stupid. It took me by surprise, and I had to reread that section (lines 84-89) again to be sure I wasn't reading it wrong. Why in the world did he do this? Is it really just an honor thing? They've been there 9 years and just had a plague . . . yes they want to go home! At first it kinda reminded me of the part near the end of C.S. Lewis' Voyage of the Dawn Treader, where they tested the men to see who was worthy to sail to the end of the world. I thought that Agamemnon wanted to see who was worthy of following Zeus' orders, but I was wrong. It was just yet another poor decision by this ruler.
Second, I'll get around to answering the questions later on tonight. I started drifting off in the middle of the catalogue of ships last night, so I have about 300 lines left to read. Followed by an evening of bluegrass music and dancing. More to come.
I'm afraid that was a bit of me being a bad moderator, since I really shouldn't give my opinion in the summary. That being said, it was a stupid idea. Agamemnon was trying to test his troops, but didn't think about how much they had already been tested. They are in Troy as a result of a vow they took years ago. Odysseus, who saves the day, actually feigned madness to try and get out of going to Troy,
I love that comparison to C.S. Lewis. I wonder if this is where he got the idea, and if he might even being going so far as to draw a comparison with how the crew of the Dawn Treader responded versus how the Greeks responded to such a test.
Here's a test comment. See:
https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!category-topic/blogger/xuQ6dQnCQFM
I like your question regarding why is so much time spent on the catalog of ships. One could ask why is there a "begat" section in the bible or why did Melville spend so much time talking about whale cetology. I think it is there to set the narrator up to be an authoritative figure. Is there a patter to it that would aid the orator's memory - like the chorus of a popular song?
Re: Agamemnon. I took it as an attempt at reverse psychology that backfired. "The Trojans are going to exult in their victory, but oh well, guess we better just give up and go home...right guys?" He knows he came off looking bad in the hostage incident, and he's getting desperate. Why not just tell them about his dream? Nestor said "if anyone else had dreamed this, we wouldn't believe it" ...maybe Agamemnon was afraid the troops and fellow kings had lost so much respect for him that they wouldn't believe HIM now?
In terms of literary analysis, maybe what really happened is there was a tradition that the Greeks almost went home at one point, and Homer wanted to work it into this story, and did it rather clumsily.
Not much to choose between Agamemnon and Achilles in my opinion. Sure, Achilles could be seen as the wronged party in the quarrel (leaving aside the whole issue of women as booty for now...), but he's betrying the men he fought with just to appease his sense of pride and status. It seems to be in this sense "honour" equates to status, not honorable behaviour.
re: Catalogue of Ships. I suppose everyone wanted their hometown to be mentioned in the epic...
I also want to say how MIND BOGGLING it is that people used to recite epics like this from memory.
Maybe the list of ships is part of how the orator memorized the story. The order of the towns is geographic, somewhat shortest path based. A common trick in memorizing a long list of things, like numbers, playing cards is to add a geographic element or story to the unrelated items.
http://fourhourworkweek.com/2013/02/07/how-to-memorize-a-shuffled-deck-of-cards-in-less-than-60-seconds/
The Catalogue of Ships site shows some of that, but is not complete. Does anyone have a link to any other maps of Iliad-era Greece and Asia Minor?
BJ...There was a rhythm to the poem.it was written in dactylic hexameter, which sounds like: Daaa-da-da Daaa-da-da Daaa-da-da Daaa-da-da Daaa-Daaa. The idea of the catalogue being in geographic order to help with memory is so cool! I've never heard of such a technique before.
Fiona- Yes, honor is very important in Homeric society. Really, it is the only reason Achilles is fighting, since he was too young to have taken part in the oath to protect Helen that the rest of the readers took. I really like the idea of the Catalogue being used to make sure everyone is included. There are several mythological precedents for that. Hercules originally only had 6 labors, for example, and some Classicists think part of why others were added was to include more cities. And the crew of the Argo from Jason and the Argonauts varies by region, with each city-state adding their local hero(es) to the crew.
Here is one map I have used: http://ancient-greece.org/map.html325
I'm not liking what I've seen of Odysseus so far either! A total bully. So much for the Greek heroes! The Trojans are more likable.
Interesting that this ancient epic already veers far from simplistic picture of black and white, us vs. them, good vs. evil. "There were good people on both sides" as it says in one of the Star Wars prequels.
Homer portraying both sides as sympathetic is one of the really unique things about the Iliad. Modern readers almost always end up sympathizing more with the Trojans than the Greeks. Which suggests some interesting questions in itself. Did Homer's audience feel the same way? And if not, what appealed to them about the Greeks besides the fact that it was their country?
I actually take that back about Odysseus. On further reflection, I think I see why he treated Thersites that way. There's lots of subtlties here. And so much to discuss...
Homer: Post-modernism before modernism.
Post a Comment